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	<title>Comments on: Shame on You, Voter! A Case for Not Voting from Jason Brennan</title>
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	<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/</link>
	<description>Mind over chatter since 1905</description>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190462</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Suppose 100 people vote.  If we have 40 idiots on the right, 40 idiots on the left, 20 smart people decide the election whether the idiots vote or not.  Rather than deciding which party has more idiots or chastizing them for doing something they&#039;re given the right for, let&#039;s educate them.

I&#039;m a political scientist and sympathize with the rage intellectuals have with neanderthals in the voting booth.  But politics, as much as it&#039;s policy, governing, law and academia, is also populism and that&#039;s probably never going to change.

Most American citizens can&#039;t pass the citizenship test.  The solution isn&#039;t to keep them from voting, it&#039;s to educate them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suppose 100 people vote.  If we have 40 idiots on the right, 40 idiots on the left, 20 smart people decide the election whether the idiots vote or not.  Rather than deciding which party has more idiots or chastizing them for doing something they&#8217;re given the right for, let&#8217;s educate them.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a political scientist and sympathize with the rage intellectuals have with neanderthals in the voting booth.  But politics, as much as it&#8217;s policy, governing, law and academia, is also populism and that&#8217;s probably never going to change.</p>
<p>Most American citizens can&#8217;t pass the citizenship test.  The solution isn&#8217;t to keep them from voting, it&#8217;s to educate them.</p>
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		<title>By: The Morning Buzz &#124; GOP Platform Includes Support for Ban on Shari&#8217;a Law</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190460</link>
		<dc:creator>The Morning Buzz &#124; GOP Platform Includes Support for Ban on Shari&#8217;a Law</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Maybe nobody should vote, after all. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Maybe nobody should vote, after all. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Berntson</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190459</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Berntson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 05:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190459</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem, as I see it, is not so much voter ignorance. The problem is a lack of voter independence. 

Here is the idea. There are well-known result to the effect that large groups consisting of people who are only slightly more reliable than chance can, when employing majority voting, be significantly more reliable than experts. If you get enough people who are 51% reliable at picking out the best candidate from a two candidate field and those people are choosing a candidate by majority vote, the group can perform better than an expert who is much more reliable.

Put another way: give me enough ignorant voters who are better than chance and independent, and I can beat any of your policy experts using democratic voting.

The problem is that as a matter of fact, voters are not very independent. If they were, ignorance wouldn&#039;t be such a problem--we would only need voters to be slightly better than chance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem, as I see it, is not so much voter ignorance. The problem is a lack of voter independence. </p>
<p>Here is the idea. There are well-known result to the effect that large groups consisting of people who are only slightly more reliable than chance can, when employing majority voting, be significantly more reliable than experts. If you get enough people who are 51% reliable at picking out the best candidate from a two candidate field and those people are choosing a candidate by majority vote, the group can perform better than an expert who is much more reliable.</p>
<p>Put another way: give me enough ignorant voters who are better than chance and independent, and I can beat any of your policy experts using democratic voting.</p>
<p>The problem is that as a matter of fact, voters are not very independent. If they were, ignorance wouldn&#8217;t be such a problem&#8211;we would only need voters to be slightly better than chance.</p>
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		<title>By: bob</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190458</link>
		<dc:creator>bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2012 04:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190458</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Response...I think is was William Buckley who said he would choose Boston phone book over Harvard faculty in voting on issues--I agree...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Response&#8230;I think is was William Buckley who said he would choose Boston phone book over Harvard faculty in voting on issues&#8211;I agree&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Links der Woche &#124; Freisinnige Zeitung</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190439</link>
		<dc:creator>Links der Woche &#124; Freisinnige Zeitung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Aug 2012 13:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190439</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Brennan (HT: Bryan Caplan): Bad Government is Our Fault, Most People Shouldn&#8217;t Vote, How Do I Know if I&#8217;m a Bad Voter &#8211; Vergleich von uninformierten und irrationalen [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Brennan (HT: Bryan Caplan): Bad Government is Our Fault, Most People Shouldn&#8217;t Vote, How Do I Know if I&#8217;m a Bad Voter &#8211; Vergleich von uninformierten und irrationalen [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Susan</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190427</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 05:57:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190427</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting. I&#039;m supposed to be convinced that voters must satisfy the highest standards of rationality, based on the claims of a guy who admits to negatively pre-judging the merits of everyone who wears an &quot;I voted!&quot; sticker? Okay, I&#039;ll accept that Brennan himself might be disqualified from voting on grounds of irrationality, but let&#039;s not leap to the wild conclusion that I&#039;m not well qualified to vote either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting. I&#8217;m supposed to be convinced that voters must satisfy the highest standards of rationality, based on the claims of a guy who admits to negatively pre-judging the merits of everyone who wears an &#8220;I voted!&#8221; sticker? Okay, I&#8217;ll accept that Brennan himself might be disqualified from voting on grounds of irrationality, but let&#8217;s not leap to the wild conclusion that I&#8217;m not well qualified to vote either.</p>
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		<title>By: Don&#8217;t Vote? &#171; Notes On Liberty</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190426</link>
		<dc:creator>Don&#8217;t Vote? &#171; Notes On Liberty</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Aug 2012 02:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190426</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] read the whole thing to find out why voting in a mass democracy is not necessarily something that should be [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] read the whole thing to find out why voting in a mass democracy is not necessarily something that should be [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Princeton University Press Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Will the bad voters please step forward? More from Jason Brennan</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190424</link>
		<dc:creator>Princeton University Press Blog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Will the bad voters please step forward? More from Jason Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190424</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] a moral duty to abstain from voting. See my previous posts, “Bad Government is Our Fault” and “Most People Shouldn’t Vote” for part of my explanation why. (Note that in “Bad Government is Our Fault”, I explain why I [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a moral duty to abstain from voting. See my previous posts, “Bad Government is Our Fault” and “Most People Shouldn’t Vote” for part of my explanation why. (Note that in “Bad Government is Our Fault”, I explain why I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jessica Pellien</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190423</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Pellien</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190423</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for your comments here. You may also enjoy this follow up post from Jason Brennan: &quot;Will the bad voters please step forward?&quot;: http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/16/will-the-bad-voters-please-step-forward-more-from-jason-brennan/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your comments here. You may also enjoy this follow up post from Jason Brennan: &#8220;Will the bad voters please step forward?&#8221;: <a href="http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/16/will-the-bad-voters-please-step-forward-more-from-jason-brennan/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/16/will-the-bad-voters-please-step-forward-more-from-jason-brennan/</a></p>
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		<title>By: MZ</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190422</link>
		<dc:creator>MZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190422</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems arbitrary to say that it&#039;s amoral to ignorantly vote for political office, yet you continue to engage in actions that constitute a functional &quot;vote&quot; in all sorts of other domains. i.e., a person might not know what the ideal dietary practice is, and they purchase and consume unhealthy food, leading to the supermarket to continually stock it, against the general interest of the other consumers. Or if an individuals approves of such-and-such social more, that happens to dominate women or minorities, without knowing very much about the social world and how say, stereotypes, take hold and  begin to reverberate. And I think both examples are coercive in a sort of way - the power of a corporation over the individual, and the instantiation of social norms that are mostly initiated without our informed consent. I guess what I am saying is that all three of the example (voting ignorantly, consuming ignorantly, enacting norms ignorantly) are pre-existent behaviors that are embedded in society without our say-so, and that we routinely engage in without meaning to.
 
I suppose my gripe is that the implied distinction between voting and other sorts of conduct seems wrongfully constructed, and can extend itself to all sorts of situations, that would also arise from people having a similar lack of education in certain spheres; perhaps not as extreme as your example, but still potent. I just mostly don&#039;t see the point in pursuing the line of thought. I can see why it is not ideal, but citizens engage in a whole lot of bad conduct that they lack the capacity to recognize, and I am unsure about designating ignorance as outright amoral.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems arbitrary to say that it&#8217;s amoral to ignorantly vote for political office, yet you continue to engage in actions that constitute a functional &#8220;vote&#8221; in all sorts of other domains. i.e., a person might not know what the ideal dietary practice is, and they purchase and consume unhealthy food, leading to the supermarket to continually stock it, against the general interest of the other consumers. Or if an individuals approves of such-and-such social more, that happens to dominate women or minorities, without knowing very much about the social world and how say, stereotypes, take hold and  begin to reverberate. And I think both examples are coercive in a sort of way &#8211; the power of a corporation over the individual, and the instantiation of social norms that are mostly initiated without our informed consent. I guess what I am saying is that all three of the example (voting ignorantly, consuming ignorantly, enacting norms ignorantly) are pre-existent behaviors that are embedded in society without our say-so, and that we routinely engage in without meaning to.</p>
<p>I suppose my gripe is that the implied distinction between voting and other sorts of conduct seems wrongfully constructed, and can extend itself to all sorts of situations, that would also arise from people having a similar lack of education in certain spheres; perhaps not as extreme as your example, but still potent. I just mostly don&#8217;t see the point in pursuing the line of thought. I can see why it is not ideal, but citizens engage in a whole lot of bad conduct that they lack the capacity to recognize, and I am unsure about designating ignorance as outright amoral.</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190421</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 18:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190421</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Still nothing about who judges and how. That&#039;s the first question to answer before we get to any other. Who defines what is and is not  &quot;epistemically well-grounded&quot; 
What did the American majority think of Quaker Pacifists in 1942, or Communists in 1955?  Has anyone here read King&#039;s letter from Birmingham jail?

And if we can limit voting, why not limit speech as well, if we deem it &quot;politically irresponsible&quot;. Only one mention of Socrates so far.  I&#039;m sure he&#039;d agree with those troubled that Jon Stewart has as much authority as he does.

As to the rest:
Money in politics is not limited to money in elections.  Berlusconi&#039;s money is well spent as far as his interests are concerned. If you&#039;re prime minister it helps to be in control of most of the major media outlets in your country, and if you&#039;re in control of most of the major media outlets in your country, it certainly helps to be prime minister.

There&#039;s also a major misunderstanding about voting itself and its role in a democracy. Voting is not about trying to get what you want; it&#039;s not concerned first with individual choice, but with marking collective change. People who argue against voting because their interests will be diluted should also divorce themselves from politics altogether even in causal conversation. Voting is no more than one point in time in our collective debate. Whatever individualists may want to believe, society situates the individual, not the other way around. Practice precedes theory; Sophocles did not read Aristotle.

To strengthen our republic, strengthen general education. The system in this country is terrible. Evidence of that is as much here as in any urban high school.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still nothing about who judges and how. That&#8217;s the first question to answer before we get to any other. Who defines what is and is not  &#8220;epistemically well-grounded&#8221;<br />
What did the American majority think of Quaker Pacifists in 1942, or Communists in 1955?  Has anyone here read King&#8217;s letter from Birmingham jail?</p>
<p>And if we can limit voting, why not limit speech as well, if we deem it &#8220;politically irresponsible&#8221;. Only one mention of Socrates so far.  I&#8217;m sure he&#8217;d agree with those troubled that Jon Stewart has as much authority as he does.</p>
<p>As to the rest:<br />
Money in politics is not limited to money in elections.  Berlusconi&#8217;s money is well spent as far as his interests are concerned. If you&#8217;re prime minister it helps to be in control of most of the major media outlets in your country, and if you&#8217;re in control of most of the major media outlets in your country, it certainly helps to be prime minister.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s also a major misunderstanding about voting itself and its role in a democracy. Voting is not about trying to get what you want; it&#8217;s not concerned first with individual choice, but with marking collective change. People who argue against voting because their interests will be diluted should also divorce themselves from politics altogether even in causal conversation. Voting is no more than one point in time in our collective debate. Whatever individualists may want to believe, society situates the individual, not the other way around. Practice precedes theory; Sophocles did not read Aristotle.</p>
<p>To strengthen our republic, strengthen general education. The system in this country is terrible. Evidence of that is as much here as in any urban high school.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Brennan</title>
		<link>http://blog.press.princeton.edu/2012/08/15/shame-on-you-voter-a-case-for-not-voting-from-jason-brennan/#comment-190420</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Aug 2012 15:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.press.princeton.edu/?p=16077#comment-190420</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Anonymous:

I don&#039;t trust donors, actually, and I agree with Mark that my argument against voting will also apply to many donors. However, I disagree with Mark about how strong the effects of donation are. I think bad voting is worse than bad donating, while Mark thinks bad donating is worse than bad voting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Anonymous:</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t trust donors, actually, and I agree with Mark that my argument against voting will also apply to many donors. However, I disagree with Mark about how strong the effects of donation are. I think bad voting is worse than bad donating, while Mark thinks bad donating is worse than bad voting.</p>
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